scotch aging

@RetFor, that is a huge ask.

@RetFor, You've requested a lot of information. You might get a few responses....especially since some of your assumptions are inaccurate.

To better understand your query, I have some questions for you. When did you develop this interest in charcoal? How many bottles of whisky do you currently own? What is the molar mass of ethanol? What is the mass of CHArCoAl?

@paddockjudge Is this a Spanish Inquisition?

When did you develop this interest in charcoal? Who cares?

How many bottles of whisky do you currently own? what doe that have to do with effects of charcoal on whisky?

What is the molar mass of ethanol? I prefer the combined molecular number for C2H6O which is my favourite, 26, but any grade 10 student can tell you it's 46.06844 g/mol. You don't have to do your Dissertation on it.

What is the mass of CHArCoAl

Sneaky trick question. It's variable. High quality charcoal, while high in lignin, is mostly pure carbon so 12.01.

But CHArCoAl has a molecular number of 65 and a mass of 138.87, and I would stay away from any whisky that came into content due to the risk of heavy metal poisoning.

If I didn't know you were such a serious person, I'd have thought you were poking poor @RetFor with a stick!

@paddockjudge a huge ask? most of that was statements. the only real question i asked is if theres any scotches aged in new charred oak barrels similar to bourbon.

which statement was innacurate?

for kicks: i developed this interest about 3-4 hours ago when i read the article. i currently own a plethora of both scotch and bourbon. i dont know of any scotches aged in new charred oak barrels myself, though, hence why im asking here...

@Nozinan NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!

@RetFor I don't know of many Scotch whisky expressions that are completely virgin oak. I think some of the marketed virgin oak expressions on the market also contain some ex-Bourbon barrel in the malt blending OR are transferred to barrels that are ex-Bourbon (or visa versa). If this thinking is right it's Deanston Virgin oak & Auchentoshan Virgin Oak.

I think Benromach organic is the only one that is completely virgin oak.

Having said that, I've not heard of any of these having any barrel charring.

If someone can verify my statement I'd appreciate it. I can't find too much information to fact find on this.

@RetFor This doesn't really answer your question, but are you familiar with Tennessee whiskey? JD charcoal filters before barrel aging. Some interesting videos on YouTube, but check out this link on the Lincoln County Process. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/… Their Gentleman Jack is run through this charcoal filtering twice before aging if I'm remembering correctly.

@Frost yeah, ive had the deanston. it was ok, nothing special imo. but not what im looking for, nor the others.

@Mancub oh right, i forgot about that. hmm, maybe it has a detrimental effect, then, since jack is pretty bad... ;)

@RetFor, it is easier to find charred new oak malts in the US than in Scotland, because of odd US whisky labeling laws. Stranahan's is probably the most widely distributed one, but there are others.

There is a very good reason you don't see a lot of malt whiskies with charred new oak aging. After a few years, even in a very slow maturation climate like Scotland, you are going to get the flavour of the new oak overpowering the flavours of the more weakly flavoured barley-malt. Most people, including I, consider that to be undesirable. I like Stranahan's, which is aged usually in the 4-5 year range, but I usually feel that if they had left it in the wood a couple of more years, that it would have been too much wood influence.

Now what would work better is to use new toasted, but not charred, oak for long-term malt whisky maturation. The oak flavours will be more subtle, because the veins int he wood have not been ripped open by the charring. Glenmorangie Ealanta is an example of 19 years aged in new toasted oak. My opinion has always been if the wood had been charred in Ealanta, that you would probably not have been able to taste any barley in the final product.

You can get a very similar effect to new charred oak maturation from the Glenfiddich 14 yo Bourbon Barrel Reserve, which has, I believe, used charred oak for part of the maturation process. Comparatively speaking that is one very new-charred-oaky Scottish malt.

...going a little further into the realms of taste and opinion, I don't think that delicately flavoured grains like barley and corn, don't work very well with the intense flavours of new charred oak. Oak completely overpowers both barley and corn. That is why you see very few barley or corn whiskies aged that way. It is standard for US corn whiskey to be aged in used cooperage. When it is not, then they usually call it something else than "corn whiskey", like George Dickel at 84% corn content, above the 80% corn content level at which US whiskeys are legally considered "corn whiskey". Dickel gets a pass by skirting the issue and calling itself "Tennessee Whisky". (Dickel omits the "e" in their labeling.). Wheat and rye are grains that can hold up in balance to the intense flavours of new charred oak. Corn and barley are not.

@RetFor, you stated, " i know some are aged in ex-bourbon casks, but those would presumably have already lost much of their effectiveness, hence why they can only be used once.",

Legislation dictates the use of "New Oak" in the aging of Bourbon, and as a result, "virgin" barrels are used. After the initial usage, these barrels are far from having lost "their effectiveness". Scotch has been aged in previously used barrels in three separate centuries with the usage of bourbon barrels increasing in recent years as ex-sherry and ex-port barrels become more difficult to obtain. These barrels that you presume to have lost "their effectiveness" suit the climate of Scotland, the grain type (barley), and the style of (malt) whisky very well.

The recent trend by Scottish producers towards NAS (Non Age Statement) single malts is interpreted by many whisky enthusiasts as a trend towards the bottling of younger whisky. New oak finishing is a way of accelerating the aging process. New barrels give more vanilla and oak to a young whisky, but in doing so they change the taste profile from that of the traditional (slower) maturation process. The result is a different product. The use of New oak for the ** maturation** process would further alter the taste profile. Oak, ginger, and vanilla would dominate. Complexity and balance would suffer.

Charring levels in barrels greatly influence the available sugars in the "red layer" beneath the char. A number four char will yield less sugar than a number 2 char. The more aggressive #4 charring of the barrel turns part of the red layer into carbon resulting in less sugar for extraction by distillate or whisky. This greater amount of char works some magic in a different way by mellowing the corn dominant distillate/whiskey (bourbon).

This topic is deep ... Entry proofs, climate, micro climate, distillation method, still types, grain type, grain quality, yeast, etc. all play their part. The barrel plays the last part before bottling; however a whisky is only as good as the sum of its parts.

Here are a few single malts matured in whole or in part by virgin oak:

Auchentoshan

Deanston

Glen Garioch

Glenlivet French Oak

Glenmorangie Ealanta

Octomore 7.4

@Nozinan, @RetFor, poking fun ... with a small ...burnt....stick.

This is a great topic and one that does not get much time on the boards here at Connosr.

oops, i totally forgot to check back for replies, heh...

@Victor what you mean by odd labeling laws? the requirement for something to be aged in charred oak to be called bourbon? (bourbon has to be aged in new charred oak barrels, not used cooperage.)

i hear you about charred barrels overpowering the flavor if left too long, but imo thats just all the more reason for someone to try it - they dont have to leave it as long. certainly they could use it just for a couple years as a first step of an overall aging process. ive had the fidditch 14, its pretty good. if it works for bourbon, which must be more than 50% corn, which you say is also a more delictae flavor, then it should be able to work for scotch too. although granted, most bourbons have at least some rye as well, which has a stronger flavor. maybe for something peated which has a stronger flavor..?

@paddockjudge i know that its legislation that creates the requirement for the new barrels, but presumably they enacted that legislation because they felt that used barrels would have lost at least some of their effectiveness. hence why im curious to see how a scotch would age in new barrels rather than ex-bourbon barrels. it could very well end up being that its a minimal difference, but itd be interesting to see what happens, as it doesnt seem to have been done before. the ones you mention are, i think, aged in plain new oak, not charred new oak. ive had the deanston. it was ok, i think it had some bitter notes that i didnt like, possibly from the wood. i wonder how charring the barrels would have affected that.

@paddockjudge

so far, of the ones you listed, only the glen garioch explicitly states that it uses new charred barrels. the others may be as well, but they dont specify. i would guess not or theyd say it, but idk.

i happened to come across the glen garioch when i was browsing the other day, so i picked it up. my initial thought was that it wasnt so great, but its grown on me a bit since. definitely oak-forward, but deeper than i remember the deanston being, with a bourbony spiciness.

id be curious to see how something like a peaty islay malt would fare aged like this.

@RetFor, sorry I missed your previous post until now. Regarding 'odd labeling laws', I was referring to US barley-malt whisk(e)y. To the best of my knowledge the US federal laws require charred barrels to be used with malt whiskey in order to call it "malt whiskey". An example of this is Stranahan's Colorado Malt Whiskey. This separates the US standard for oak use in malt whiskey from that of the rest of the world.

Whether or not you like the flavours of new charred oak combined with corn or barley is of course a matter of taste. It can work out well to have charred oak with barley. I like Stranahan's, for example. I think Stranahan's succeeds precisely because they do not age their malt very long in new oak. The standard Stranahan's is only aged about 4-5 years. The Glenfiddich 14 yo Bourbon Barrel Reserve is an example of a very heavy use of charred oak. Does it work? To some, yes. I find it a bit much, except as a curiosity.

For me the heavy flavours of new charred oak generally need a strong counterbalance, such as the intense flavours of rye grain. I understand why the standard for US corn whiskey is aging in used oak. It is for the same reason why malt whisky is usually aged in used oak. That reason is to provide balance of the lesser flavour intensity of re-used cooperage with the lesser flavour intensity of milder grains like corn and barley.

But, sure, try everything out there. It is all interesting, including those styles that never become widely popular.

@RetFor Belle Meade bourbon is also charcoal filtered but is very very good.