So, what are you drinking now?

Last night, made yet a different (new to me) cocktail. It’s not really that different, but it is the strangest variation for a Manhattan that I have come across yet. Even the name is lame.

Room temperature Manhattan; 2 oz Rye (I used Rittenhouse), 1oz sweet vermouth (I used Carpano Antica), 3 dashes Angostura bitters and 3/4 oz water. Stir without ice and strain into a wine glass. Garnish with a brandied cherry.

While it wasn’t bad, (it tasted like a Manhattan), I couldn’t get past it not being cold. It also had a weird texture. I won’t be making this one again. :-)

@bwmccoy there's something about chilling a drink that really brings it together. Dilution too is important, what might be obvious to some, that lesson took me a while to understand.

@RianC if you haven't seen this movie yet you're in for a treat

Please pass along the method for this Spanish style pork, sounds pretty damn good. Nothing like rye or a rye forward bourbon to stand up to all that rich spicy food.

@cricklewood - Agree about the rye and bourbon after spicy food for sure! Just finished Get Out - I had an inkling of what to expect, which spoiled it a tad, but that was as good a suspenseful and original film as Ive seen in a good while. Nice mix of dark humour and creepyness - some of the 'white introductions' were very lol!

I'll pm you the recipe.

@Victor Tried the Hotel Monteleone’s Vieux Carre last evening. I used Rittenhouse rye and Carpano Antica vermouth. I think this will be my go-to recipe from now on (I mean, it is the original, right? :) ) I will still play around with the brand of rye and vermouth a bit but last night's cocktail was quite tasty! Thank you for sharing!

@Victor Tried the Hotel Monteleone’s Vieux Carre last evening. I used Rittenhouse rye and Carpano Antica vermouth. I think this will be my go-to recipe from now on (I mean, it is the original, right? :) ) I will still play around with the brand of rye and vermouth a bit but last night's cocktail was quite tasty! Thank you for sharing!

@TracerBullet What did you use for cognac?

@OdysseusUnbound Hennessy VS

@TracerBullet outstanding! I am delighted to hear it.

@Victor I forgot to mention that I cut back slightly on the Benedictine D.O.M. It's very sweet and I don't like overly sweet cocktails.

The Vieux Carre, @Victor I must admit to being shocked at the recipe you posted. Having an equal part drink 1-1-1-1 for Rye, Brandy, Sweet Vermouth and Benedictine? That would be mighty sweet indeed. Still, I will try it soon. Most recipes call for ¾ oz of the first three (Rye Brandy, and Sweet Vermouth) and then a bar spoon or so of the Benedictine.

@OdysseusUnbound I would call it an inexpensive and easy cocktail to make. The big buy is a bottle of Benedictine DOM which is required (not the B & B version which is half Benedictine and half Brandy). You really can’t substitute this. However, you can totally skip the Peychaud bitters if you don’t have it. Just use Angostura. And I would totally use 100% Canadian Rye if it was around.

My go to ratio is 1oz Rye, 1oz Brandy, 1oz Sweet Vermouth and 1/4oz of Benedictine. Then two dashes each of the Angostura bitters and the Peychaud bitters.

And I am actually most fond of using cheaper version of Rye and Brandy. I will often use Dickel Rye or Bulleit Rye (both LDI/MGP juice). I am not as big of a fan of the Rittenhouse in this cocktail. I just tired the Old Forrester Rye the other night and it was fine, but not amazing. I have tried using Old Potrero 18th Century Rye which is fascinating when paired with an Armagnac.

For the Brandy I actually really like using Fundador which is a Spanish Brandy (I know it sounds like heresy in a French Quarter cocktail). Fundador is an inexpensive Brandy (aged in sherry casks) and not a great sipper in my opinion, but it really does well in the Vieux Carre. I haven’t bought a bottle of American Brandy in over a decade, but one could work. I have used different Cognacs, but I feel like most are too delicate to stand up to the spicy rye whiskey. I think Armagnac works better than Cognac in this drink because it is more robust and can pair well with Rye whiskey.

@TracerBullet I agree that the Carpano Antica Formula makes a huge difference (as is totally worth it). I have used the Martini Rossi, Dolin, and the Noilly Prat, but I really prefer the Carpano Antica and I highly recommend a bottle even though it is around $35 or so.

The most expensive version I have ever made: Sazerac 18yo Rye, Delord 25yo Armagnac, and Carpano Antica Formula Sweet Vermouth. Sadly, not worth the waste of the Sazerac 18yo.

I believe that cocktails were intended to elevate spirits that were not palatable on the own. feel like the Vieux Carre shines best when you use mid-shelf spirits. This Vieux Carre is probably the best example of cocktail where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. A few years ago we were hosting a dinner party and the gents wanted a “strong cocktail” so I made this. Just prior to serving the Vieux Carre I actually poured everyone very small (1/4 oz) shots of each of the individual liquids. Then when everyone tried the Vieux Carre it was obvious that the whole was greater than the individual components.

I say experiment with whatever you have. I even tried this with a Thomas H. Handy . . . yes, it overwhelmed the cocktail balance. But that is what happens with a THH at 64.5% ABV.

Dang you guys . . . I think I am going to have to make a Vieux Carre tonight.

Ok this Vieux-Carré thread has me curious, I've got everything but the Benedictine, I know it's heresy but could I sub Chartreuse? I really don't feel going to the liquor store right now. I know it won't be the same but would I get close enough?

@cricklewood do you have Green or Yellow Chartreuse?

As I plan to make a Vieux Carre tonight already I can make your Chartreuse variant and tell you how I think they compare.

Do you have Drambuie? That might also work.

@Nock Thank you for the detailed and thorough response

@Nock I've only got green left, I haven't been able to buy yellow chartreuse in Quebec or Ontario in a while.

Yeah I figured Drambuie would likely be closer but I haven't got any of that either.

@cricklewood I actually prefer the Green as a general rule. I have a bottle of Yellow that has sat around for ages. I probably wouldn't replace it. The Green is just so much more intense and lovely.

Ya, I'll make both version and report back soon.

@OdysseusUnbound it is my pleasure. I only hope my experience can benefit others. I am just sorry that most of my posts end up so long.

@Nock "I believe that cocktails were intended to elevate spirits that were not palatable on the own."

While I do agree that this was correct for say, prohibition era spirits and it can help with cheaper rail level booze, I still feel that in most cases using better spirits in your cocktails makes a better cocktail. For me it is more a question of how much better? Sometimes a cheaper spirit fairs rather well and there is not a big difference.

The Hotel Monteleone’s Vieux Carre that Victor posted shocked me as well, but since they are credited with creating the original cocktail, I figured I had to give it a go. And I do agree that it is a lot of Benedictine which is why I did cut it back a tad.

@Nock for someone whose spirit collection is locked away as we are, every extra paragraph is golden....

Vieux Carre experiment for @cricklewood

So I just made to versions. First a standard base line:

1 oz George Dickel Rye

1 oz Remey Martin VSOP Cognac

1 oz Martini & Rossi Sweet Vermouth

¼ oz Benedictine D.O.M.

2 dashes Angostura bitters

2 dashes Peychaud bitters

Stirred with two large ice cubes in tumbler.

Now the alternative. Everything is the exact same except that I substituted Green Chartreuse.

Thoughts? My first sip I was shocked at the similarity. But with more time the differences have become pronounced.

The standard Vieux Carre balances the spice of Rye whisky with the silky elegance of Cognac and then ends with a delightful sweet herbal note. The sweetness really shows up on the finish. I am sure the bitters contribute to the overall herbal quality. The Sweet Vermouth is the least present of the ingredients, but I would suggest that it acts like the base or the glue binding everything together.

The alternative: You start off with that exact same wonderful dance of Rye and Cognac mixed with sweetness. But the finish is where things take a different turn. It takes the herbal quality and really ramps that up. Far more herbal on the finish than the standard. And the sweetness it dramatically turned down. Clearly, Green Chartreuse is not as sweet as Benedictine. And while they are both herbal . . . they are very much herbal in noticeable different directions.

Conclusion? The alternative is less sweet and more herbal. I find that this doesn’t produce the same balance or elegance of the standard. It is not a bad cocktail. Rather, I would say it doesn’t have the same level of balance that the standard one has. Granted, I am extremely biased. The Vieux Carre is my favorite cocktail. And I think it is because of the Benedictine. I fell in love with Benedictine before I discovered the Vieux Carre. That said, I am currently enjoying Chartreuse tremendously. I love the Laphroaig Project Cocktail (a spin on the Last Word Cocktail). So I thought I would be very open to this alternative. I would give it 80% of what the standard is.

Next I plan to make @Victor’s recipe with exactly 1 : 1 : 1 :1 and see what happens. I am certain it will be far sweeter. But, perhaps it will highlight the Benedictine. We will see.

Tonight I enjoyed an Old Fashioned (ok, maybe two) made with OGD 114. I have to say that if I lived in the US of A, I would never be without this tasty, versatile, and well-priced bourbon. Neat, on the rocks, or in a cocktail, this stuff is wonderful.

@Nock I made one anyway, using your proportions and Benedictine green, I added a smidge of honey syrup to restore the balance. It was a fun drink, stiff yet nuanced. Ill be sure to try it again once I have a better vermouth and Benedictine.

@OdysseusUnbound there's a few budget bottles I would stock up on if I lived in the US or had regular access. OGD is one of em'

@OdysseusUnbound OK, you convinced me. I'm having some Old Grand-Dad 114 now. I am exceptionally proud that I wrote the first Connosr review of OGD114 and that it was my first ever review, 9.25 years ago. I have been an apostle of OGD114 ever since. The Old Grand-Dad (Basil Hayden, grandfather of distiller Raymond D. Hayden) is an Outrageous Old Man.

@Victor Honestly, I think OGD 114 would fare really well in most blind tastings. It doesn’t come across as overly sweet or cloying as some bourbons do, yet it isn’t harsh at all despite the higher proof. It strikes a lovely balance between sweet, fruity, oaky, and drying.

@OdysseusUnbound you do not expect me to disagree with you, do you?

@TracerBullet

I would agree . . . to a point. I think $30 spirits are about the sweet spot. A $30 Rye whiskey is clearly better than most $15 whiskies you might find (I am sure there are exceptions). And the same is true for both Brandy and Vermouth.

So when I make a cocktail like a Manhattan with a $30 Rye or Bourbon it is likely better than the $15 bourbon. But once you get much beyond that . . . diminishing returns. So If I am using a $50 bourbon for a Manhattan or Old Fashioned it is likely marginally better than the $30 bourbon. Using a $100 bourbon or rye? Forget about it. Typically, I find it worse. I have actually made a Manhattan with George T. Stagg. It was a disappointment. I made a Sazerac cocktail with Thomas H. Handy which was an even bigger disappointment.

There comes a point where quality is best standing alone.

I think this is similar to single barrel whiskey. Some single barrels are legendary. But most need to be vatted with others to really really achieve greatness.

I did just finish the Hotel Monteleone’s Vieux Carre. Wow. That is a cocktail where Benedictine is the star. If you love Benedictine that is an amazing cocktail to showcase the spirit.

However, I greatly prefer the balance that comes in dialing back the Benedictine. It allows both the Rye and the Brandy to shine . . . with the Benedictine on the finish.

I’m listening in on a Townhall phone call being hosted by my union to explain the tentative bargaining agreement. Anything political and job-related calls for something strong, so I’m sipping some A’Bunadh Batch 58.

@OdysseusUnbound

I need to reopen the cabinet tonight (PASSOVER ENDS AT SUNDOWN!!!!) and I'm trying to choose a dram that is excellent and that a palate that has not tasted spirits for over a week can handle. A'Bunadh is one of the 15 whiskies on my 5 whisky short-list

@Nozinan I’m now having some Cairdeas Fino Cask and it’s wonderful. After not having whisky for awhile, the peat might blow your face off though....

@OdysseusUnbound Agreed. And my sample is several hundred KM away.

As I suffer through an OMA zoom meeting, I'm going to enjoy a small pour of Amrut Naarangi. Full flavour, "only" 50% so it should not overwhelm me. Using the modified Ashok manoeuvre. Smells great, have not sipped yet.