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What's the most outrageous retail markup?

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By @Nozinan @Nozinan on 9th Oct 2017, show post

Replies: page 4/5

@cricklewood
cricklewood replied

@OdysseusUnbound I know the feeling especially when on the board you connect with many different people and keep getting reminded of another great expression you want to try or buy.

Sample trading is a good way to try many new things but sometimes that just makes it worse.

6 years ago 0

@paddockjudge
paddockjudge replied

@Astroke, @Nozinan, I just got out of bed, battling a cold or some kind of bug, but I'll do my best to answer your query. There were negative comments made about the burgundy label (not the whisky). It was not a surprise to see a white label on the most recent batch. The pre-flood (2013) batches were very good and there was a slightly different label on some of the early bottles. Highwood had a few label and carton changes on their Century Lot15/25; the early batches were crazy good!

I find the burgundy batch from LCBO to be a bit drier than the White label batch. The white label is a touch sweeter while the burgundy batch is dustier with a bit more oak and a slightly more bitter finish. Both are excellent examples of well-aged corn whisky. All of these and a few more including Century 21 YO, Century 25 Yo, Canadian Rockies in various expressions, and a few over-the-top cask strength 30-someting whiskies are all excellent examples of well finished corn whisky. My favourite is Century 25 YO 100th Anniversary of the Calgary Stampede 40% abv 2012...the notorious loose cork batch. I could go on, but what you want to know is Burgundy vs White. White for a sweet tooth and burgundy for a longer drier finish.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

@Nozinan
Nozinan replied

@cricklewood sometimes tasting with friends can introduce you to a bottle you just can't forget...

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@cricklewood
cricklewood replied

As far as outrageous markup, the price of the standard 10 year old Whistlepig Rye in Canada, it's 147$ at the LCBO.

While it can often be found in US for about 60-70$, with many places offering store picked single barrels at cask strength for about 60-80$. It's also made in Alberta which makes it twice as infuriating...seing as we have to go through all this nonsense to get access to high proof ADL juice.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

@cricklewood
cricklewood replied

@Nozinan touché sweat_smile that Amrut bourbon cask is haunting, last time I got bit like that was Octomore 7.3, I could recall the flavours of the dram for days after.

6 years ago 3Who liked this?

@Victor
Victor replied

@cricklewood, it is nice to see a little response, thus far to the drum beat of "Give us cask strength Canadian whisky!" from the Canadian distillers. Now, perhaps, they are finally convinced that they can sell the cask strength products and make a profit from them.

I have always been a fan of Alberta Distillers Limited, but I do not understand why they even have that 'filler' whisky, or whatever, that they use to bulk out their products. Their "flavouring whisky" is their whisky. The other stuff is merely high ABV distillate dumbing down the product and Canadianizing it, i.e. allowing it to be produced and sold more cheaply. WhistlePig is especially good for several reasons: 1) it is the "flavouring whisky" from ADL, in other words, their good stuff, 2) it is made to US straight Rye specifications. Canadians usually gloss over this, but it is critical to the whisky's quality. US straight rye specs do not allow the usual high ABV Canadian distillation practice, nor do they allow used oakwood to be used, 3) it is bottled and sold at a respectable ABV, 50%. I laugh whenever I hear anyone, Canadian or otherwise, refer to 50% ABV as being high. 50% ABV is only high in Canada for Canadian whiskies, and 4) the whisky maturation decisions. No one, especially Canadians speaking about WhistlePig, likes to talk about this. The fact is that the latter part of whisky maturation and the decisions made as to when the whisky is ready to be dumped are as important, or, potentially, much more important than are the quality of the original distillate. The obvious (for those with the experience of it) example is Willett Family Estate Bourbons and Ryes, which for many years have been sourced whiskies from several other distilleries. Anyone who has tried half a dozen Willett FE bottles will tell you that they are virtually always far superior from the typical product of those typically named source distilleries, such as Heaven Hill, Barton, and MGPI. It is absurd to call WhistlePig Canadian whisky when 1) the most important portion of the aging is not accomplished in Canada, 2) the most critical aging and maturation decisions are not made in Canada, and 3) the whisky is not made to Canadian whisky industrial standards.

I have been a fan of all of the WhistlePigs which I have sampled. I have mixed feelings about the whisky because it has always been expensive. It has always been expensive in my region. I paid $ 80 plus tax for my one bottle of the standard WhistlePig 10 yo in 2011 and have almost never seen it cheaper than that since that time in my region. It costs almost $ 100 (almost Can $ 120) with the tax in my county right now.

If I were Canadian, what I would want from ADL is whisky made to the same specs as WhistlePig, but in Canada...and of course, for lesser prices than WhistlePig is currently selling. I've had some WhistlePig 14 yo The Black Prince twice recently. Is it good? Yes, quite good, but I laugh out loud at the idea of paying the $ 500 selling price for it.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

Astroke replied

@Victor From what I read ADL offers aging in new or used casks and the Rye is aged at ADL per whatever spec's are requested (see Hochstadter's Family Reserve 16 year Rye 123.8 proof, distilled, aged in Alberta) If WP10 was released in 2010 then we can be sure those first few releases were all ADL aged in new American Oak in Alberta for 10 years. If Pickerell dumped it into some port casks or other seasoned casks to finish them later, that's fine to.

Would I expect the same thing done in Canada, of course I would but my emails/pleas to Beam Suntory fall on deaf ears

50% ABV is not high ABV, but it is acceptable :)

6 years ago 0

@paddockjudge
paddockjudge replied

@Victor, I call bullshit. WP early offerings are Canadian whisky. The newer blends are not.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@paddockjudge
paddockjudge replied

@Astroke, we are all big boys. I know @Victor won't be offended. He's not wrong...but I disagree. Superfluous is not my middle name.

6 years ago 0

@cricklewood
cricklewood replied

@paddockjudge Shoot that's a lot of middle names...

I am no expert but I somehow doubt all the ADL rye that is going out there is getting a whole lot of "to spec" treatment.

Certainly folks who buy the bulk product will give it some post treatments, finishing in ex-bourbon casks (is this necessary for them to seel it a straight Rye?), French oak and sauternes and so on (the whistlepig old world rye are MGP whisky).

Yet I believe the reason so many folks were interested in it was because other than the aforementioned MGP no one had any aged rye in quantity and of such quality. Also Suntory seem to have a hard-on for bulk sales and a disregard for the the potential of their own product.

I agree that the whistlepig products are often priced a bit too high, I mean the cost of those black prince or boss hog releases are just bonkers, considering they do so little to produce these profucts themselves.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@Victor
Victor replied

To reiterate, my assertions as to why WhistlePig is a hybrid product and cannot be called a "Canadian whisky" are: 1) the final stages of aging are not accomplished in Canada, 2) the decisions as to when the whisky is mature and to be dumped are not made in Canada, and 3) the whisky is made to specs which are not ADLs (or Canada's) typical modus operandi, e.g. US straight rye distillation ABV no greater than 80% ABV and all new charred oak aging.

I am not there to inspect the whisky myself, so I rely upon the many reports that the whisky's later stages of aging are accomplished in Vermont. Are all of those reports inaccurate? They must be incorrect for you to be correct.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@paddockjudge
paddockjudge replied

@Victor, The reports you refer to were vetted at a later time. The launch of WP kept secret the origin of WP Rye. WP is a product of Canada, and always will be. It may be a value added product, but a value added product from Canada. Florida orange juice bottled in Toronto does not become Ontario Orange Juice. David Pickerel claimed the best RYE in the world, (not spirit, not distillate, not 'almost excellent but needs to cross the international border to be considered excellent) was to be found at Alberta Distillers.

Although the decision when to dump the barrels is key to a good whisky, it is my opinion that you place too much importance on this factor when discussing WP. The product began as the best rye in the world, according to Pickerell. It was up to the Vermont bottlers not to screw it up. Distillers spend a tremendous amount of resources producing and identifying the good barrels in their warehouses. When you start with the best, all you have to do is not fuck it up, regardless of geography.

I will admit that WP in the bottle is likely to be a value added product; however this is only a guess as I did not taste it before it left Alberta.

It has been a long time since we had a discussion on this forum that did not involve an excessive amount of back slapping and ass-kissing. I tip my hat to you @Victor for taking such a a bold stance.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

Astroke replied

@Victor So ADL can distill it, barrel it, have it age in their warehouses but it is not Canadian Whisky because it was done to US spec's and Pickerell tweaked it at his end. Nope.

6 years ago 0

@Victor
Victor replied

@Astroke, tweaked? I'll agree with that idea if they bottle it in Vermont in less than a year. Do they? I doubt that. And it is incredibly inaccurate to suggest that a good distillate can only be messed up by those who oversee the latter stages of its maturation. The decision as to when to dump the whisky is extremely critical to the quality of every single whisky.

Canadians love to claim WhistlePig Rye because it is better than almost every Canadian whisky in existence. I understand that. But to get better, Canadian rye makers need to learn what works. Now I preach. What works with rye whisky is 1) using only the best distillate, as is the case with WhistlePig, 2) distillation alcohol by volume below the typical Canadian distillation ABVs, which is the case with WhistlePig , but probably not the case with most ADL distillate, 3) no additives, as is the case with WhistlePig and all US Straight Ryes, but not true of some other ADL products, 4) final ABVs of 50% or more, true of WhistlePig, but of almost no blended Canadian whiskies, 5) use of new rather than re-used oak wood to balance the strong flavours of rye grain, and 6) avoidance of the addition of strong conflicting flavours, such as wheat in the mash, or wine influences.

I encourage ADL to make something just like WhistlePig and sell it as a Canadian whisky. The fact that you Canadians are all importing and buying WhistlePig from the US, and paying higher prices than are paid in the US, demonstrates just how non-Canadian WhistlePig rye really is.

What do I want out of this sort of conversation, in a larger context? I want Canadian whisky to improve.

@paddockjudge, I do not seek out conflict, but sometimes conflict is inevitable.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@Victor
Victor replied

To be clear, I love WhistlePig Rye. I consider it to be a Canadian-US hybrid. I'd put the influence as 75% Canadian, and 25% US. I wish I could buy Canadian-flag whisky which tasted like WhistlePig Rye. This is what Canadian whisky should taste like, but almost never does.

What infuriates me is that the standard 10 yo Alberta Distillers Limited product is Alberta Springs, which is as dusty and drab as a graveyard...and not something bright and vibrant like WhistlePig 10 yo Rye. Why is that? A real answer to that question tells the story of Canadian whisky. I would like to see 30 different Canadian Ryes each as good as WhistlePig, and each 50% ABV or higher.

6 years ago 3Who liked this?

@Nozinan
Nozinan replied

@Victor For the record... Lot 40 CS is as good as or better than any WP I have tried. It might be the best 100% rye I've tasted.

6 years ago 0

@Victor
Victor replied

@Nozinan, I've had Lot 40 CS once. I was disappointed, but it was a small sample in a crowded context, so I am open to reassessment. I've been asking for a cask strength version of Lot 40 for years now. I hope it will be something that will be regularly available.

6 years ago 1Who liked this?

@Nozinan
Nozinan replied

@Victor I hope so too because the three bottles I ended up with (not to mention those I helped find for others) will not last forever.

I liked the Lot 40 CS when I tried it 2 years ago "behind the counter" at SOT. I likes it a bit better when I tried it at the SOT masterclass in 2017. But in each case (especially the latter) there was too much ambient odour and chaos to properly experience it.

In a controlled setting, this stuff is phenomenal, which is why I raised my score so much on my re-review. You HAVE TO TRY THIS NEXT TIME YOU'RE IN TOWN.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

@Victor
Victor replied

@Nozinan, I very much hope to sample most or all of those new premium Canadian whiskies when I am next in Toronto.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

Astroke replied

@Nozinan With price point considered I would agree on it being the best 100% rye for me as well but I have not had that many 100% rye's. Hochstadter's Family Reserve 16 year Rye at 123.8 proof may be a tad better IMO but with that hefty price tag...I don't know. I need to get a sample to you.

6 years ago 0

@paddockjudge
paddockjudge replied

Outrageous! Jefferson's Reserve Bourbon $105.20 per 750 mL bottle at LCBO. This is DOUBLE the price of only a few years ago.

6 years ago 2Who liked this?

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@nooch
nooch replied

@paddockjudge just looking at the kgb for sales and discovered that they bumped Glenlivet 18 up to $179. I bought a bottle on sale two months ago for $120. 4 years ago the Glenlivet 18 was $105. Then it was $125. Then $155. Now $179. Its good. It’s by no means exceptional. Whoever is in charge of buying there has finally lost it

6 years ago 0

@Victor
Victor replied

Six months or so ago I bought 2 bottles of Jose Cuervo Reserva de La Familia Extra-Anejo Tequila here in Montgomery County, Maryland. At the time I was amazed that the non-sale price here was $ 93.99 plus tax, while the world average price was $ 150 plus tax. I concluded that that price would not last, and that that was the time for me to buy some . At the time I even managed to lower my costs to about $ 90 per bottle total using a coupon and getting one of the bottles at a close-out price. As of this past week only 2 of the previous 8 stores in my county listing any Reserva have any in inventory, and the county price is now $ 178.99 plus 9% tax = $ 195.10 per bottle. That was a 90.4% price increase over the standard non-sale price, and more than double what I had paid a few months previously.

5 years ago 0

@BlueNote
BlueNote replied

@Victor I was told several times that the reason all things Mexican have gone up in price is because the price of gasoline down there has taken a serious price hike over the past year. However, the example you give does seem extremely excessive.

5 years ago 0

@Nozinan
Nozinan replied

@BlueNote Maybe it's the cost of lifting products over the wall..... angry

5 years ago 3Who liked this?

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