Collect, or drink?

@Spitfire, the answer to your query is, yes.

"do you salt it away, wheel and deal, or drink it?"

The whisky aficionado, or affectionado, of which there are many at this site, will do all of the above.

I am always looking to expand my network and often enter into trades. In order to do so, I must have something worthwhile to offer. Buy and hold is not a gamble and never a losing proposition...why?, because I can always drink it.

Did the brand manager mention anything about Evan Williams Single Barrel 2003? I have a few on the shelf....

@Spitfire, have you ever tried WhistlePig? ...and what do you think of it?

@Spitfire, like @paddockjudge I am primarily and overwhelmingly interested in drinking whiskies which I like. In order to do so, tasting many whiskies, identifying the ones I especially like and laying in supply are required tasks. Procuring ones that I want that are harder to get is also part of the picture. The result, a few years later, is a large number of different bottles, including duplicates (on up to x 10) of favourites, and a certain number of desirable bottles which might be used for barter to get whiskies unavailable through my available channels.

As paddockjudge correctly observes you have to offer quality to be able to trade for quality. So if you see a decent price on a rare and in-demand bottle, even if you don't plan to drink it, the chances are that it will be quite valuable to you later in being able to swap for something you want.

Times have gotten much tougher, though, because prices have risen to the point of challenging the value for money of most whiskies. The trick is to identify an under-valued whisky before it gets popular, and then to stock up on it. When the demand hits later, value increases. But you have to be a good appraiser of value or you may stock up on overpriced whiskies with little interest or demand...and let others buy up the ones which would be in demand later.

Good luck, @Spitfire! British Columbia is usually not reported to be a place for many whisky bargains. Maybe do that wagon train from Calgary like the Ontarians do.

I usually buy only stuff that I would like to drink. The only exception is if someone has specifically asked me to pick something up and hold it for them.

That being said, I acknowledge that as much as I would like to drink from almost every bottle I have purchased (or rather the intent was there at the time), I will likely not get through most of what is in my collection. With this in mind I'm prepared to trade or let go of some of the bottles for people who will appreciate them.

I have a few bottles that I picked up along my journey while I was young(er) and eager and didn't really know where my tastes would go. I probably wouldn't have bought them today. Examples are Aberlour 10-18 YO, Glenlivet 18, but nothing collectible. I can't even return the Aberlours because the newer versions have lowered the ABV.

A few of my bottles have unexpectedly taken off in the secondary market, but sadly these are bottles that I bought because I wanted to drink them.

I think that when I get around to opening my bottle of Nadurra (with an age statement) people will have forgotten it ever existed, and it will be a treat.

So in essence, I collect and salt away in order to open eventually and share with fellow enthusiasts, because sharing a dram, no matter how intrinsically good, provides more enjoyment than drinking it alone (even if that's good too).

In the meantime, I open more bottles with said enthusiasts than I can consume the remains of, so I never have to worry about which one to open on my own...

@paddockjudge There is a new high-end US-based retail store--Nordstrom's--in Vancouver. My wife and I have been in Vancouver twice since it opened, and both times she's wanted to visit. Nice as it may be to wander around watching the young, expensively dressed women who fill the place, I was happy to find there is a small open bar in the store (makes a lot of sense when you think about it--not only a place for bored husbands to chill for a bit, but I'm sure the "ladies who lunch" shopping there might be a bit more loose with the pursestrings after a libation or two).

Anyway, while their collection is by no means extensive, it does include WhistlePig--and so yes, I have tried it. Twice now. And I'd buy a bottle, if I could a) find it locally, and b) justify the cost.

I found it sweet--not too sweet, just right--and smooth. Nose is delicate and floral--indeed, when the bartender set the glass on the table, my wife (who is NOT a whiskly aficiondo) commented about how nice it smelled. Indeed, one of the nicer whiskies I've sampled--and I'm annoyed that, while it's apparently distilled in Canada, none of the Canadian producers want to put anything like it on the market (at least, not that I'm aware of--suggestions?).

@Victor Thanks, guys. Yeah, there's always the "wagon train from Calgary"--as I've said elsewhere, KWM is my favourite retailer--but I'll only go that far out of my way if I happen to be visiting the city anyway (couple of years ago, I was there on my motorcycle--only room to carry a few bottles on the bike, though).

Personally, I buy whisky to drink in good company. I do have an odd bottle or two stashed away but I doubt I'll ever put them on the market.

Hi, @Spitfire,

I am in a similar situation with 20 odd bottles accumulated over last year and half a lot of different distilleries and styles just trying to find what I like. I do not buy anything with the intention of selling on at a later date but have put a couple of bottles away for special occasions, Nadurra 16 year which no matter what price it gets to you will have to pry from my dead hands and Octomore 6.3.

Both bottles may increase in value as supplies dry up or decrease if distilleries get their acts together when production and storage catch up with demand, but I would rather drink them with friends than sell them on. Even if I was to double or treble my money what would I be able to buy? Several bottles of dubious quality NAS, not on my bucket list.

I do: "salt away" and "drink it" thus I have a tendency to buy multiple bottles of the same, one to keep and one to drink.

Problem is, as the price of certain bottlings increase, it becomes increasingly hard for me to bring myself to open the bottle. That is the unfortunate dilemma for the collectors such as myself.

I collect as well as drink, but everything in my "collection" will be opened and drank at some point in the future. I collect with the intention of being able to open hard to find or very delicious whiskies down the road when they are very hard to find and maybe very expensive. As an example I have a few bottles of BTAC stashed away that I don't intend on opening anytime soon. I am going to try and obtain one of each of the 5 BTAC releases, and then one day hold a tasting where all 5 will be opened at once. Sure the value will be astronomical at that point, but it will also be neat to hold a tasting with several thousand dollars worth of bottles with friends that I paid a fraction of the price for.

Paddockjudge & Spitfire: My closest friends and I personally find the EWSB 2003 (versus 2004) to clearly be the better of the two bourbons. Not sure of it's "investment" potential, but from a consumption standpoint, while I would not pass on a oftered dram of EWSB 2004, I certainly would reach quicker for an offered 2003. I am both a consumer and hoarding of whiskies. The escalation in prices over the years has certainly impacted my thinking of buying several bottles now, in only to open one over the coming years. And while the periodic discontinuation of some of those whiskies (ex. Macallan Cask Strength) may have added value, to be honest, I have never gave much thought to reselling. I always assumed by closest friends and one sibling would be the beneficiaries of my "hoard" if/when I pass. My thinking could change in the years ahead, but for now it is the joy of the experiences, one bottle at a time.

I buy to drink (figuratively) today, tomorrow, next week, or way down the road.

•"Today:" See a bargain, pick it up, crack it open.

•"Tomorrow:" Grab another peater, open it when the open selection gets a little thin.

•"Next week:" It's special enough to wait for the right moment—or, more likely with me, for the right side-by-side sparring partners. Stuff I have waiting in this category includes PC7 (until I get at least one more PC), Benromach 10 100 Proof (until I grab a standard Benromach 10), and Kilkerran WIP #1 (until the new 12 YO comes out).

•"Way down the road:" The few bottles I have stashed for the long haul are vintage-dated bottles from the 1900s that I think will be cool to open with my kids one day when they're grown up. So it'll be like 2035 or 2040. Aside from the dating, these really aren't anything too special. A few examples: A 1995 Arran, a 1996 Springbank, a 1994 Benriach, a 1997 Benrinnes, a 1992 Longmorn, a Nadurra 16. I'd love to add something from the 1980s before they get too pricey.

This is an issue that is causing me problems with my own collection..I have a few bottles that have increased in value since I bought them, for example I have 3 BTAC's , a Parkers Heritage that I bought for £70 now worth £300 and also a Littlemill that I paid £80 for now worth £250.Obviously I'd like to open them all but the money that I could get for them makes me reluctant to do so. I don't want to sell them either which leaves me in a sort of whisky limbo ..To drink or not to drink , that is the question to which I have no answer at this time.

@OlJas Yeah, today, tomorrow, next week, next year--I only purchase with an expectation I'll be drinking it at some point, Like I said, when the guy mentioned putting the EWSBV bourbon away, I was taken completely by surprise--I simply never thought of my bottles that way.

BTW, I have heard (well, Ralfy mentioned it at one point*) that whisky can "go off" in the bottle if left for too long--like, decades; the cork can dry out and allow evaporation and oxidation to occur--and really, wouldn't I feel the idiot if a bottle I'd been anticipatng for years was just swill when I opened it! Also, it strikes me that the master distillers might actually prefer their product be enjoyed...I imagine I would, in their position.

*Ralfy did a segment on collecting, in which he described some of the pitfalls. He then showed some things to look for to determine whether a collectible bottle might have "gone off," or worse, been tampered with (either to hide any problems, or perhaps even had the liquid replaced).

As a whisky enthusiast I lean towards the side of drinking. I will buy several bottles of the whisky I truly enjoy, especially as the possbilities of certain expressions not being available. For example, one of my favorite Japanese whiskies is the Yamazaki 12yo. I have four bottles, and I am glad I got them when they were affordable and available. I do not purchase them thinking that I wil sell them off for a profit. I would rather enjoy a good dram with good friends then go around trying to sell of a bottle of whisky to the highest bidder.

???kanpai!

Unless you've got a big stash to sell off or you've got some really pricey bottles, I can't see that it's even worth the hassle to sell.

That said, if it IS easy—like, if you can just take it to a dealer or auction house or willing buddy or whatever—then the decision to sell is always the same as the decision to buy. On one hand, you have $$$. On the other hand, you have bottle X. Which do you want more?

@OlJas During that conversation I mentioned in my original post, the brand manager commented that "Whisky was a better investment than the stock market last year." The thing that struck me about this comment was the attitude change; whisky is no longer a delectable consumable to be enjoyed, but rather a commodity to be hoarded and traded. And if the bottle is truly never opened and enjoyed, then what's being traded is simply the idea of the whisky, the promise of it, the intangible pride of ownership; what's actually in the bottle becomes secondary (indeed, in Ralfy's segment he mentioned one collector who discovered upon opening one of his most prized bottles that it contained only coloured water--the whisky had been pilfered at some point over the years...). My point is, if we aren't going to enjoy it, the bottle may as well hold water (or substandard spirit), and who'll ever know? The bottle itself--and more importantly, the mythos attached to it--becomes the commodity; what's inside becomes secondary.

@Spitfire, what you say is all true for whisky speculative resellers. There are not many of those in this club, though, and if they post about it, they tend to get chilly receptions.Those who are here don't usually post much or stay too long as active members.

Knowing what is going on in the secondary market, is, however, very useful in order to make decisions as to the current public values of our bottles for swapping purposes, etc. If we want to swap for a bottle of enhanced secondary market value, we are going to have to sort through our stores and see which of our bottles might make the grade as an attractive trade.

@Spitfire , your closing comments have been echoed in many criticisms of those super-luxury, super-expensive, super-"collectible" bottles that come in fancy-pants decanters and cost thousands of dollars. They're more art pieces than beverages, so why bother putting quality liquid in there?

Do you ever read the whiskyfun blog? Serge often opens crazy old bottles from decades ago and I'm pretty sure it's not because he's been personally sitting on them on these years. He or his buddies surely buy them on the secondary market. My point is that, although many rare bottles probably do just perpetually change hands like mathoms, many also finally get popped at the time & in the right hands. So I don't worry about it.

Thanks for the responses, guys. I'm certainly not worried about it--just kinda formulating my own views on a subject which, prior to that offhand comment from a salesperson, I'd never thought about. Keep in mind, I'm a novice at this, and my entire "collection" would probably be dwarfed by what some members here have open at any one time. And the idea of a "secondary market" is new to me, too. I get the feeling this discussion has occurred here before...

@OIJas And yes, your comment about how the super-collectible bottles become "art pieces" is exactly what I was thinking about. My wife is a professional artist, so I'm familiar with this discussion :-) I will have to check out whiskyfun.

@Spitfire ,you're in for a wild ride if whiskyfun is new to you. Serge has been reviewing a big batch of (often impressive) whiskies almost daily for years. YEARS.

@Spitfire, I think your theory about it being the notion of whisky which is being traded and sought after is very true and I believe that it is a bad way to go. I like drinking whisky, I don't like inflated pricing due to marketing and speculation

And do check out whiskyfun, serge is a very likeable guy and a great reviewer!

My passion for scotch has picked up recently as my brother has found an interest in scotch as well. Makes for some fun times and it's nice to be able to split up the cost.

It has allowed us to try a broad array of the spectrum, from readily available scotch to collectible. If we both agree on a scotch we like, we stock up. Not for flipping purposes, more for future enjoyment as things change over time. We have found that we lean towards cask strength options vs. regular. age statement is something we are trying to increase as the trend is moving towards NAS due to supply/demand.

It may end up that we trade a bottle or two away in the future however, it is unlikely as this is more about spending time and experiencing things together.

We try to use the buy 2, drink 1 principle. If one is finished, buy 1 to 2 more if we like it. The nice thing about the LCBO is if we don't like it, we can return the second one to fund a new purchase. We did this to acquire the Highland Park Odin and Balvenie Tun 1509.

Our goal is to have enough where we can chose not to buy more and enjoy it when we are in retirement. I anticipate that we won't stop buying however, it will be fun to try a bottle that has been sitting in wait and enjoying it in future years.

@maverickdrinker

You're lucky. My brother likes the occasional dram of whisky but he doesn't really get excited about it and doesn't come over to drink, even though I have enough to last both of out lifetimes.

The problem with buy 2 and drink one is that it takes me so long to finish a bottle, and I can't keep opening bottles without drinking them. By the time I get to some of the bottles the LCBO no longer carries them and I'd be stuck with the spare.

I think the whisky industry would do itself and me a favour to offer minis in the same markets that they offer certain expressions. That way you could buy a mini, try it and if you like it get the bottle. If you don't, no extra bottles taking up cabinet space for years.

@nozinan

I keep all my receipts so that in an event I need to make a return, it's easy.

We usually go through thing once a year (near xmas) and return any scotch, liquor or wine that has accumulated that we decide we do not enjoy that much. Makes it a fun visit to the LCBO....

@maverickdrinker

Once a year is good, but I have bottles I bought in 2011. The LCBO carries the product but the ABV is different so it's a different product.

It's ok, I'll find someone who wants it someday. Or maybe my tastes will change and I'll appreciate the nuances of lower ABV malts...

@Spitfire: What a great topic! I'm like the majority, I buy to eventually consume over time. I purchase mostly single malt because I like the different flavours that Scotland offers. I do have some very rare bottles, however, getting a big return on my investment is extremely unlikely. If someone wants to make a leap into the spirit market it can be done; however, deep pockets are needed. Consider the Platinum Whiskey Investment Fund for example if someone wants to make money. Where is the fund? Where else but Hong Hong. They'll be glad to take anyone for an initial investment of 250K.

@PeterG7 Thanks, yes--a topic I've seen alluded to on this board but not that often discussed directly.

As I write this, I see there is a new thread, from a new member, seeking information on selling a bottle they've owned for a couple of decades. I do hope they get some good information from the more knowledgeable site members.

Personally, I do not have the deep pockets--nor the inclination--to join a "Whisky Investment Fund," no matter what precious metal it's named after. To my mind, that is the epitome of my earlier complaint about the whole idea of collecting and trading fine whisky; the spirit is completely removed from the transaction, reduced to simply a number on a spreadsheet, a commodity to be traded without the owner ever actually even laying eyes on it (and certainly never considering actually tasting the stuff).

Collect to drink. Pretty simple. Buy it today, it might be on the shelf tomorrow.